JK vs. JL

[MBood82]

I think I'm jumping back into the actually owning a Jeep game. We just want a 2 door Wrangler with a stick. After that, minimal rust and decent reliability are the next criteria. Mostly will be used to get ice cream on the weekends/evenings and when the snow is deep enough I don't want to take my 300C out.

It would seem the best bang for my buck range on this would be a 8 to 10 year old JK as it would get me the 3.6 engine and not completely terrible high miles. However, Jeeps hold their value well, almost to the point that a 5 year newer JL isn't that much more, but at that point you could almost swing a lower model new one for not much more than that!

The manual transmission is a must, I'd read that the one on the JL is pretty terrible. Should I plan on skipping that and just finding the nicest (least rusty) JK I can find in my price range? Or is that overblown and the benefits of the JL outweigh the cost increase?

[champ]

From a pure ice-cream retrieval, nice day only purpose? JK hands down.

I briefly owned a 2-door, manual, JK and I firmly believe it was a better driving experience than any manual JL I've driven. Some of the shortcomings of the JK can be alleviated with the correct aftermarket tidbits.

[6DoF]

there is no way i'd get a JK for any reason ... the JLs are just that much better i just don't think the value is there. on that note i'd get a TJ, or order a brand new base model. get the bare min, add a few bolt-on's, and sell it in a few years for basically what you have in it.

[Cobound]

If a manual is a MUST - JK. Period. No question, none - and they are snappy, reliable vehicles.

If you want to look at cost, and consider a JK and JL are not that far off in the 2 door variety - I'd go with a JL and an 8spd auto hands down. Period.

JL manuals blow hard, garbage, and you'll wonder WTF you wasted your time, money, and energy even considering it.

My wife's 2 door auto JK Sahara is pretty nice. I was impressed w/ it when we took it to CO a couple years ago (when my JT was totaled) and towed our trailer. I'd go so far as to say super impressed, actually.

Don't you already have a sporty manual? I know you're hard core stick shift, but you should really go test drive one and see for yourself - the 8 speed kills. And if you already have a manual, why get another

#toeachtheirown

OlllllllO

[6DoF]

while i don't say this much ... i kinda have to agree actually with B. they WAY over did the electronic BS and trying to take the driving out of the driving with the JL manual. i have a buddy who works for jeep and just went thru a huge re-do to re-program and rework the manual for the JT cuz they were so **** the market even agreed.

manual's for life!

[Cobound]

Originally Posted by 6DoF

while i don't say this much ... i kinda have to agree actually with B.

I know that pained you greatly, but kudos for admitting you agree w/ me

[MBood82]

Originally Posted by champ

From a pure ice-cream retrieval, nice day only purpose? JK hands down.

I briefly owned a 2-door, manual, JK and I firmly believe it was a better driving experience than any manual JL I've driven. Some of the shortcomings of the JK can be alleviated with the correct aftermarket tidbits.

What were the major downsides? Driveability programming, like Matt mentioned further down? Or mechanical differences? The cable vs. direct shift difference I know has lead to some complaints with the shifter itself.

Originally Posted by 6DoF

there is no way i'd get a JK for any reason ... the JLs are just that much better i just don't think the value is there. on that note i'd get a TJ, or order a brand new base model. get the bare min, add a few bolt-on's, and sell it in a few years for basically what you have in it.

I'd get a TJ if I could find one that was affordable. Every one with minimal rust costs as much as a JK with the 3.6. The JK with the 3.8 seems to be the current low cost point. I like the idea of the advantages the JL offers with the improved suspension, ergonomics and everything else but I'm nervous that so many people seem to hate the manual. We won't back off of that requirement.

Originally Posted by Cobound

If a manual is a MUST - JK. Period. No question, none - and they are snappy, reliable vehicles.

JK > JL purely for the manual comments below? I mean, I also like the idea of spending less money... but it does seem weird to buy an 8 year old vehicle when a new one is really not that much less percentage of cost wise. Same reason to go with an 8-10 year old JK versus a 20 year old TJ.

Originally Posted by Cobound

If you want to look at cost, and consider a JK and JL are not that far off in the 2 door variety - I'd go with a JL and an 8spd auto hands down. Period.

No auto!

Originally Posted by Cobound

JL manuals blow hard, garbage, and you'll wonder WTF you wasted your time, money, and energy even considering it.

Are they failure prone? Difficult to drive? What specifically makes them so bad? I did a google search on their issues and mostly found people complaining about vague or hard shifting that seemed to be attributed to cable adjustments.

Originally Posted by Cobound

Don't you already have a sporty manual? I know you're hard core stick shift, but you should really go test drive one and see for yourself - the 8 speed kills. And if you already have a manual, why get another

We already have the Challenger, but why only one clutch pedal in the driveway when you can have two? Plus, that's the wifes car, this would be more for me. It's already a compromise that I'd have to drive it with a V6 for a period of time...

Originally Posted by 6DoF

while i don't say this much ... i kinda have to agree actually with B. they WAY over did the electronic BS and trying to take the driving out of the driving with the JL manual. i have a buddy who works for jeep and just went thru a huge re-do to re-program and rework the manual for the JT cuz they were so **** the market even agreed.

manual's for life!

So is it all electronics/tuning that are causing the seemingly widespread hatred on the JL?

[champ]

Originally Posted by MBood82

What were the major downsides? Driveability programming, like Matt mentioned further down? Or mechanical differences? The cable vs. direct shift difference I know has lead to some complaints with the shifter itself.

Mechanically? I despised the shifter feel and the clutch especially. Maybe I'm just a manly man used to high HP stick cars, but the heavier clutch on the JK was far easier to drive than the feather light clutch on the JL. I believe there have been numerous problems with the pressure plate on the JL clutch and corresponding recall(s).

Drivability programming? Just one complaint that is almost impossible to avoid in modern, manual transmission, cars - rev hang. I think it was far worse than the JK. Unfortunately, I believe rev hang is going to be inherent due to emissions.

The JL steering feel, even with the steel steering box and other updates, is not as connected as any JK I've driven and far worse than my last two TJs. I don't know what FCA did to ruin on-center steering on these things, but I sure hope they don't continue the trend with any new iterations.

For overall refinement and a quieter ride, the JL does win in this category.

[Cobound]

Why do JL clutches suck -

Drivability blows
Mechanical issues - well documented, premature clutch failure, low mileage wear on plates

Honestly, you can Google - Jeep JL Clutch Problems - and get a ton of info...my buddy had a manual JT, it was blah w/ the 3.6, and sucked as bad after his Hemi install...he sold it and bought an auto diesel - F' loves it!

Personal preference, I know...I still like manuals as well, especially in a sports car, just flat out fun. However, w/ the advancements to transmissions, the auto is not only more relaxing to drive, it shifts better, faster and has less failure rates than manuals.

To each their own...just don't buy a JL manual, even the hard core guys went the 8 speed route.

[champ]

Originally Posted by Cobound

Why do JL clutches suck -

Drivability blows
Mechanical issues - well documented, premature clutch failure, low mileage wear on plates

Honestly, you can Google - Jeep JL Clutch Problems - and get a ton of info...my buddy had a manual JT, it was blah w/ the 3.6, and sucked as bad after his Hemi install...he sold it and bought an auto diesel - F' loves it!

Personal preference, I know...I still like manuals as well, especially in a sports car, just flat out fun. However, w/ the advancements to transmissions, the auto is not only more relaxing to drive, it shifts better, faster and has less failure rates than manuals.

To each their own...just don't buy a JL manual, even the hard core guys went the 8 speed route.

Agreed on all points. I'm usually firmly in the 'buy the manual' camp, but the 8-speed ZF just out performs the manual in nearly every way.

They only way I'd buy/order a manual JL is with the optional 4.88 gears and some assurances the clutch issues have been resolved.

tl;dr: go and drive a manual JK, manual JL, and an auto JL before making up your mind on the manual.

[MBood82]

Originally Posted by Cobound

Why do JL clutches suck -

Drivability blows
Mechanical issues - well documented, premature clutch failure, low mileage wear on plates

Honestly, you can Google - Jeep JL Clutch Problems - and get a ton of info...my buddy had a manual JT, it was blah w/ the 3.6, and sucked as bad after his Hemi install...he sold it and bought an auto diesel - F' loves it!

Personal preference, I know...I still like manuals as well, especially in a sports car, just flat out fun. However, w/ the advancements to transmissions, the auto is not only more relaxing to drive, it shifts better, faster and has less failure rates than manuals.

To each their own...just don't buy a JL manual, even the hard core guys went the 8 speed route.

OK, I googled the clutch issues. That helped a lot, focused in on the issues. Sounds like Jeep issued a weak clutch and pressure plate and then tried to fix it with software, making driveability terrible if it thinks it's slipping. Centerforce has a replacement kit that seems to fix the hardware issue but you are still stuck with apparently frustrating factory programming.

It also looks like they recalled the 2018 to 2020 models but didn't change anything hardware wise on the newer ones, they just came with the new programming already.

Originally Posted by champ

Agreed on all points. I'm usually firmly in the 'buy the manual' camp, but the 8-speed ZF just out performs the manual in nearly every way.

They only way I'd buy/order a manual JL is with the optional 4.88 gears and some assurances the clutch issues have been resolved.

tl;dr: go and drive a manual JK, manual JL, and an auto JL before making up your mind on the manual.

I hate spending time at the dealer these days but that may be my best bet. See if I can find a dealer that has both a manual JK and JL on the lot.

I do have a lot of familiarity with the ZF8 speed that Mopar uses across their lineup, had one in my Ram, my current Charger, and will in the 300C as well. It's a great piece of equipment and I'm sure world changing for the Wrangler relative to the old 5 speed POS. However, I refuse for the fun vehicle to have an auto.

[Cobound]

For what it's worth, my buddy tossed in that CF kit and still hated driving it, he tossed a ton of money at it to "fix" it...he's a hard core manual guy as well, but finally gave in and says he has no regrets.

I mean, he had the 3.6, the 5.7 and now a diesel...hands down, diesel auto for the win.

I know it sucks going round and round to test drive stuff...but, armed w/ what you now have, I do think that is your best bet, next steps, if you truly want one still.

Know this, it'll be easy to find a 3.6 or diesel auto, but good luck finding the manual...you'll probably find a 5.7 swap before you find a stick on a lot...they just don't sell, and if they are used it's cuz someone sold it to get an auto

And to make it even more difficult - in a 2 door

Good luck..I'll toss something on here if I see anything pop up

[nblehm]

TJ all day. They cost as much as a jk because they are better.

[6DoF]

now you did it ... you got B started and now manual trans are the next trump

[6DoF]

Originally Posted by nblehm

TJ all day. They cost as much as a jk because they are better.

x2

TJ-Unlimited if you are feeling spunky

[MBood82]

Originally Posted by Cobound

For what it's worth, my buddy tossed in that CF kit and still hated driving it, he tossed a ton of money at it to "fix" it...he's a hard core manual guy as well, but finally gave in and says he has no regrets.

I mean, he had the 3.6, the 5.7 and now a diesel...hands down, diesel auto for the win.

I know it sucks going round and round to test drive stuff...but, armed w/ what you now have, I do think that is your best bet, next steps, if you truly want one still.

Know this, it'll be easy to find a 3.6 or diesel auto, but good luck finding the manual...you'll probably find a 5.7 swap before you find a stick on a lot...they just don't sell, and if they are used it's cuz someone sold it to get an auto

And to make it even more difficult - in a 2 door

Good luck..I'll toss something on here if I see anything pop up

Seems I should just stick with the JK then. I'm not budging on the manual, and the 2 door I'd only give up if there was a perfect example of a V8 swap already done.

Originally Posted by nblehm

TJ all day. They cost as much as a jk because they are better.

I've driven and worked on both. For what I'm doing, the JK seems the better buy. I'll miss the 4.0 but the suspension seems much improved.

Originally Posted by 6DoF

now you did it ... you got B started and now manual trans are the next trump

I'd rather argue manual vs auto then politics...

Originally Posted by 6DoF

x2

TJ-Unlimited if you are feeling spunky

I'd love one, always thought they were the cats ass. But holy unicorn... Rare to be rust free and expensive as all get out even rusted out!

[6DoF]

well, i happen to know where there is a rust free southern LJ for sale, pre-built but needs some general TLC and adjustments. BUT ... it's an auto.

it's my BIL's, and i've actually been trying to convince the wife she wants to drive it in the winter and sell the GC.

[nblehm]

Originally Posted by MBood82

I've driven and worked on both. For what I'm doing, the JK seems the better buy. I'll miss the 4.0 but the suspension seems much improved.
!

What are you Old or something?

[Cobound]

LOL - to each his own, I've just been in the JK, TJ and now JL/JT world long enough to know that there are issues with one over the other.

TJ are nostalgic, but that's it. Unless you're out to Sunday drive w/ the top and doors off, or build a wheeler, it's now become the Tacoma - purpose is to benefit the wheeler or low mile guy, with an antiquated interior, etc. We've had several, long term, daily driver, wheeler, and only way I'd own another one would be to get an Unlimited and do a moderate build, or all out wheeler.

JK - Jeep really did it right here, haters gonna hate, but it's a great vehicle, we've had several and have enjoyed each one. From stock to heavily modified, great in between vehicle...and still reasonable with a manual. I'd recommend a 2012 or newer for mechanical changes and some interior mods, even better a 2015 or newer for some slight interior mods, otherwise they really are all the same.

JL - hands down, my JT is my fav, but I'm a slush box fan and love the auto...the 8 speeds is butter. That said, interior has improved, lots of updates, smoother ride - but well established, the manual blows.

It's not politics, I'm just pretty steadfast in my stance on these

Again, when you know what you're really going to go for LMK and I'll keep my eyes peeled. Be willing to travel for the right one and jump, make it an adventure

Good luck!

[MBood82]

Originally Posted by 6DoF

well, i happen to know where there is a rust free southern LJ for sale, pre-built but needs some general TLC and adjustments. BUT ... it's an auto.

it's my BIL's, and i've actually been trying to convince the wife she wants to drive it in the winter and sell the GC.

I'd love to go that route, but it being an auto kills it. I also don't need something that built, there are no trails within a reasonable distance of where I live (north of Chicago) so it would be a pure mall crawler. Feel a bit guilty about that!

Originally Posted by nblehm

What are you Old or something?

I've lifted friends Jeeps, both a TJ and a JK. The JK just was better designed and easier to work on. Knowing it would fall on me to service it the better suspension with less age/rust is a solid win.

Originally Posted by Cobound

LOL - to each his own, I've just been in the JK, TJ and now JL/JT world long enough to know that there are issues with one over the other.

TJ are nostalgic, but that's it. Unless you're out to Sunday drive w/ the top and doors off, or build a wheeler, it's now become the Tacoma - purpose is to benefit the wheeler or low mile guy, with an antiquated interior, etc. We've had several, long term, daily driver, wheeler, and only way I'd own another one would be to get an Unlimited and do a moderate build, or all out wheeler.

JK - Jeep really did it right here, haters gonna hate, but it's a great vehicle, we've had several and have enjoyed each one. From stock to heavily modified, great in between vehicle...and still reasonable with a manual. I'd recommend a 2012 or newer for mechanical changes and some interior mods, even better a 2015 or newer for some slight interior mods, otherwise they really are all the same.

JL - hands down, my JT is my fav, but I'm a slush box fan and love the auto...the 8 speeds is butter. That said, interior has improved, lots of updates, smoother ride - but well established, the manual blows.

It's not politics, I'm just pretty steadfast in my stance on these

Again, when you know what you're really going to go for LMK and I'll keep my eyes peeled. Be willing to travel for the right one and jump, make it an adventure

Good luck!

I'm hoping my 300C comes in soon-ish. I'd really like to get that settled before I start looking at the next vehicle. Still waiting on a build date though...