Official End of the JK, Friday April 27th, 2018

[Dennis]

Originally Posted by Sir Sam

Wait, you want an XJ with all of todays features? Thats a JK.

Todays "features" include side impact airbags, side impact crash zones, etc.

You either want an XJ as it was built 17 years ago or you don't.

Plus, haven many of you could even say you would pay $25k for a new XJ exactly as a fully loaded limited 2001 was optioned?

You'd look at it and go, this is all I get for $25k? The JK has more power, better fuel economy, better safety, more interior room, is quieter, etc etc for marginally more money.

BS people would buy that.

XJs seemed to have gotten cheaper relative to inflation as the years went on. Shoot, my 2001 Limited was $2K cheaper than my 1989 Laredo, similarly equipped. By now, if they had kept building the XJ, through found savings over the years they could theoretically be sold as the cheapest new vehicle in America. And the reviews would all be that for just $12K you can get a relic from 1983....

[Sir Sam]

Originally Posted by Dennis

XJs seemed to have gotten cheaper relative to inflation as the years went on. Shoot, my 2001 Limited was $2K cheaper than my 1989 Laredo, similarly equipped. By now, if they had kept building the XJ, through found savings over the years they could theoretically be sold as the cheapest new vehicle in America. And the reviews would all be that for just $12K you can get a relic from 1983....

They still cost about 12-14k in China. But they had to update them to remain competitive.

[Cobound]

Yeah, the JK is the new XJ. Only seriously better!

On that note, picking up a 17 year old XJ tonight

[bbaCJ8]

Originally Posted by Dennis

At some point there would have been a point that they needed to move on technologically to get more power than last years' model in order to make sales. Seems that carbs were close to their limit. The regulations just steered everyone in the right directions speeding up the change. And folks say the government isn't good for anything.

Yeah, carburetors are gutless
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZGEnFWuo_A

[Dennis]

Originally Posted by bbaCJ8

Yeah, carburetors are gutless
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZGEnFWuo_A

[6DoF]

Originally Posted by Dennis

At some point there would have been a point that they needed to move on technologically to get more power than last years' model in order to make sales. Seems that carbs were close to their limit. The regulations just steered everyone in the right directions speeding up the change. And folks say the government isn't good for anything.

it's possible to get a carb'd vehicle to pass today's emissions regulations ... you just have to hand tune every one coming off the line for the exact environment that it'll be driven. EFI was just easier to do it, and offered more consistent performance for the customer over longer periods of time.

[Dennis]

Originally Posted by 6DoF

it's possible to get a carb'd vehicle to pass today's emissions regulations ... you just have to hand tune every one coming off the line for the exact environment that it'll be driven. EFI was just easier to do it, and offered more consistent performance for the customer over longer periods of time.

Exactly. Carbs give you power, can give you tons of power, they just can't be made to give you consistent maintenance-free power. Fuel injections was inevitable, but regulations speed up the process and pointed it in a good directions.

[Dennis]

FI has also provided drivability that was sorely lacking in high performance carbed vehicles.

[CJ74U2NV]

Originally Posted by Dennis

Carbs give you power, can give you tons of power, they just can't be made to give you consistent maintenance-free power.

I have 2 vehicles with carbs. I haven't had to touch the carburetors on them in decades. I've never heard of anyone saying "I need to fix that carburetor again".

Carbs might not be "fine tunable" like FI, don't work on steep inclines and can't adjust on the go to the environment. But they're very, very dependable. Got a dead battery? My carb & mechanical fuel pump still works.

Computer controlled FI is for two reasons:
1. More difficult for the average shade tree mechanic to work on.
2. Government regulations.

[Dennis]

Decades? Really?

[xj_man_646]

Originally Posted by 6DoF

it's possible to get a carb'd vehicle to pass today's emissions regulations ... you just have to hand tune every one coming off the line for the exact environment that it'll be driven. EFI was just easier to do it, and offered more consistent performance for the customer over longer periods of time.

Originally Posted by Dennis

Exactly. Carbs give you power, can give you tons of power, they just can't be made to give you consistent maintenance-free power. Fuel injections was inevitable, but regulations speed up the process and pointed it in a good directions.

You would be VERY hard pressed to get a carbureted vehicle to meet emissions today. The HC and NOx emissions standards are so close to zero that the level of AFR control required to meet the standards is unattainable with a carb.

This is, literally, the reason EFI became a thing.

In the 1970s and 1980s in the U.S. and Japan, the respective federal governments imposed increasingly strict exhaust emission regulations. During that time period, the vast majority of gasoline-fueled automobile and light truck engines did not use fuel injection. To comply with the new regulations, automobile manufacturers often made extensive and complex modifications to the engine carburetor(s). While a simple carburetor system is cheaper to manufacture than a fuel injection system, the more complex carburetor systems installed on many engines in the 1970s were much more costly than the earlier simple carburetors. To more easily comply with emissions regulations, automobile manufacturers began installing fuel injection systems in more gasoline engines during the late 1970s.

[Blue XJ]

Originally Posted by Dennis

FI has also provided drivability that was sorely lacking in high performance carbed vehicles.

I will agree with that part. I had a very modified carb on my hotrod, it was a bear to drive until the engine was warm, and even then it worked best at heavy throttle inputs. I switch to FI and love it, best money I ever spent on the car, engine drives exactly like my daily driver now, and it really woke up the part throttle inputs.

[Dennis]

Originally Posted by Blue XJ

I will agree with that part. I had a very modified carb on my hotrod, it was a bear to drive until the engine was warm, and even then it worked best at heavy throttle inputs. I switch to FI and love it, best money I ever spent on the car, engine drives exactly like my daily driver now, and it really woke up the part throttle inputs.

Driving them back to back, the difference between a brand new 1990 4.2 YJ and a brand new 1991 4.0 YJ is what taught me the advantages and disadvantages as a 20 year old. Before that I had thought it was just old car vs. new car differences. I knew the carbed exotics of the time had more power than the US F.I. cars, but hadn't realized the drivability difference. There is something special though about an old pre-emissions carbed sports car. The sounds, the smells. Then you take a long turn too hard and the thing sputters at the apex....

[ct90YJ]

try driving a 4.2 jeep from Denver @ 5,280 elevation to 11,000+ feet in elevation above Leadville and tell me you don't love FI.

[Dennis]

Originally Posted by ct90YJ

try driving a 4.2 jeep from Denver @ 5,280 elevation to 11,000+ feet in elevation above Leadville and tell me you don't love FI.

[Cobound]

Ha, yeah...the differences are pretty clear out west. I have buddies that wouldn't go back to CO wheeling w/ me cuz they hadn't updated their Jeeps to FI yet.

My Harley is carbed...choke to start, sounds pretty tits...but the drivability of a fuel injected Harley is soooooo much better!

Either way, back on track...I don't see the prices of the used market going down any time soon. And, having just walked into a Jeep dealership the other day, they had two '18 model Rubicons on the floor...one JK and one JL...there was a $10k difference in them

Anyway, the same JK we bought in '14 was marked up $12k more for the '18 JL. I'll pass...but I do see them starting to appear on the roads, so they're selling.

[Dennis]

Originally Posted by Cobound

Ha, yeah...the differences are pretty clear out west. I have buddies that wouldn't go back to CO wheeling w/ me cuz they hadn't updated their Jeeps to FI yet.

My Harley is carbed...choke to start, sounds pretty tits...but the drivability of a fuel injected Harley is soooooo much better!

Either way, back on track...I don't see the prices of the used market going down any time soon. And, having just walked into a Jeep dealership the other day, they had two '18 model Rubicons on the floor...one JK and one JL...there was a $10k difference in them

Anyway, the same JK we bought in '14 was marked up $12k more for the '18 JL. I'll pass...but I do see them starting to appear on the roads, so they're selling.

JL prices will settle in 18 months. I suspect that JKs will hold value for years to come, just as TJs did for the first 5+ years after the JK was introduced. But five years from now, value will take a moderate plunge.

[Cobound]

OH, have you priced a TJ lately? Cuz, uh, they are insane, too

[Dennis]

Originally Posted by Cobound

OH, have you priced a TJ lately? Cuz, uh, they are insane, too

https://www.truecar.com/used-cars-fo...ear-1997-2006/
Yup, silly prices, still 35-55% of original MSRP, but five years ago they seemed to be 45%-70% of MSRP. Silly how much folks are asking for YJs too. I still think JKs willl hold 75%-85% of their value or more for the next five years or so, then the 3.8s will drop first, followed by a dip for the 3.6s. Will still hold their value better than a Benz or Rolls.

[Cobound]

75-85 might be a stretch, but they will def hold in the 60-75 range...it's insane! 3.8 w/ the old interior first, 07-10, then the 11, sole year w/ new interior and 3.8.

Yeah, we sold our Wrangler X for $13,800 (of course, not what I paid) and new it was probably barely $19-20

Now that I think of it, we got 65% trade in on our '08 w/ 105k!